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Dietrich A. Hrabak
NAME- Dietrich A. Hrabak
NATION- Germany
DATE (S) OF INTERVIEW (S)- February, 1984, July 1991, February 1994
PLACE OF INTERVIEW (S)- Pfaffenhofen, Germany, Washington, D.C. Myrtle Beach, S.C. (telephonic)
LANGUAGE (S) CONDUCTED- English
SIGNIFICANCE OF SUBJECT- -Luftwaffe fighter pilot, WW II, rank of Colonel; post-war Lieutenant General in NATO; Kommodore of JG’s-52, 54 on Eastern Front. Awarded Knight’s Cross with Oak Leaves, 125 aerial victories.
OTHERS IN ATTENDANCE- None
FORMAT- Q & A standard
Q- General Hrabak, when and where were you born, Sir?
A- Well, I was born on 19 December 1914 in a small village near Leipzig in Saxony.
Q- Give us some background concerning your family please, General.
A- During the first four years of my life my father was a soldier, fighting in World War One in France. He was an infantryman. My mother, sister and I lived on a farm, and my sister was a year older than I was. After the war we had a very difficult time, as did everyone, and when my father returned he started his own business, a construction firm building homes. The terrible inflation and unemployment made it very hard on us. We continued on like this until I joined the service, and my father’s business continued until the outbreak of World War Two. As for me, I went to school, and after nine years in public school I attended the Queen Carola Gymnasium, which is similar to your high school, as you know, in Leipzig until Easter of 1934.
Q- When did you develop your interest in flying?
A- I was about sixteen when I began to visit all of the existing air bases near Leipzig, including Dessau, where the Junkers company developed their famous aeroplanes, and I watched everything. The year before I finished gymnasium in the summer of 1933 I tried to get a place in one of the two training centres for commercial pilots, the DVS, but without success. However, I did get a hint that there might be a build-up of the new air force in Germany and was advised to contact the Navy, or Kriegsmarine. In April of 1934 I started my military career as a Naval Officer Candidate, and in November 1935 I began my flight training at Ludwiglust.
Q- So you started out the same way as Johannes Steinhoff did?
A- Yes, exactly, and we have been close ever since those days.
Q- Did you take naturally to flying, or were there difficulties? I heard you had some problems in the beginning.
A- Yes, I heard the same stories, but personally I think everything went rather normally. There had been two major accidents, however. As a young lieutenant I was stationed with a fighter group at Bernburg with the Heinkel He-51, the older biplane. During a training mission we encountered heavy ground fog, and due to a fuel shortage I was forced down into it, where I crashed into a smithy building. The aircraft was totally destroyed and I was very lucky. I had a slight injury to the left eye, which put me out of action for three months. Incidentally, Adolf Galland was in the same group as myself and had crashed just two days before due to the same type of conditions, using the same type of aircraft. My second accident occurred about two years later when I had my first flight in a Messerschmitt 109E, after having flown the 109D model earlier. Its Daimler-Benz engine was more powerful in the E type, and during take-off I realised this rather quickly, doing a ground loop and breaking the undercarriage away.
Q- You were later sent to Austria, helping to establish what would become one of the most successful fighter units. Tell us about that.
A- After about half a year at Bernburg and another six months at Bad Aibling, just southeast of Munich, I transferred with the fighter group to Vienna in the middle of March 1938. There we protected the Junkers Ju-52 of Adolf Hitler, flying escort. In Aspern, our air base, we were mixed together with the Austrian Fighter Wing No. 2, and we were split into two groups. One stayed in Vienna, the other returning to Bad Aibling. At this time I became Adjutant of the Vienna Group, designated I/ZG-76 [First Group, Destroyer Squadron No. 76, flying Me-110 aircraft] and remained there until World War Two broke out. On 1 April 1939 I took over the command of the first squadron of I/JG-76 (First Group, Fighter Squadron No. 76) which it was now called, which was consisted mostly of Austrian officers and enlisted men. They were excellent and well trained personnel.
Q- What was your first combat mission like?
A- Just before the war erupted our unit moved to Upper Silesia, north-east of Breslau, which is now part of Poland and called Wrozlaw, or something similar. It was an emergency airfield from which we flew our first missions in the campaign against Poland. The first two days of combat we did not see a single enemy plane, but on the third day, while I was flying a four-plane fighter sweep, which is called a ‘Combat Air Patrol’ today, we received a radio call that Polish bombers were attacking German ground troops. We flew to the area concerned and saw three Polish PZL-23’s and I immediately attacked the one on the centre. However, I did this in a very thoughtless, childish way, and before I could begin firing the rear gunner shot my engine dead. The cockpit filled with smoke, forcing me to jettison the canopy, and crash land on the battlefield between the lines. I then ran away to hide in a nearby wood until our ground troops came and picked me up. So I learned my first lesson: ‘Think before you attack, and use your head, not your muscles.’
Q- When was your first victory, which started you on the path to success?
A- It was 1940 in the French campaign, the third day after the invasion began. I was again flying in a four-ship formation (finger four, called a schwarm) over the Sedan region, where our mission was to protect the bridges spanning the Maas River. Here we encountered a Potez P-63, a twin engine light recon-naissance plane. I was the first to attack, then the other three joined in. Well, the Potez belly-landed and the crew got out, but we wanted to see the aircraft burn, so we strafed the plane, setting it afire. We shot all of our ammunition into this cripple. It seems that at that time I had forgotten my own advice of ‘using your head,’ because we were suddenly jumped by nine Curtiss P-36 ‘Hawk’ fighters of the French Air Force. All we could do was open the throttles and run like hell for our home base, outrunning the enemy.
Q- When we are young, we do things that we would not do when we are older and wiser.
A- You are correct, but it’s not only age, it’s also the growing experience, as you learn from each flight. Well, the war went on in France until June, but it was over Dunkirk that we experienced the British Spitfires for the first time. In the heavy air battle that followed I lost two of my pilots, and these were the first losses for our squadron, and without any success. This was a learning experience, and it made me very cautious in future fights against Spitfires.
Q- Give us a description of the Battle of Britain, and which unit you were
assigned to at that time.
A- Before answering your question, let me tell you about my second engagement against Spitfires, which was again unsuccessful. It was in the area north of Rouen when I detected quite a large number of Spitfires in a formation which we called the ‘idiot snake’, one playing flying one behind the other at a slightly lower attitude, weaving in back and forth. I went to attack what I thought was the last plane, but another shot out my cooling system, which was a very vulnerable part of the Bf [or Me] -109. I had to again crash-land when my engine seized up. After the French campaign ended I was stationed near Rotterdam for a month to protect the oil refineries from British bombers. On 8 August 1940, just before ‘Adler Tag’ (Eagle Day) I transferred with the unit just south of Calais. This was still I/JG-76 and we flew missions against England until 30 November 1940. The fighting was very tough over the Channel, and we lost many pilots.
Q- During this period you were serving with Hannes Trautloft, were you not?
A- Yes, that’s right. It had been the middle of August during a rejuvenation of all command positions within fighter command proper as ordered from Berlin. It was at this time that Hannes became Kommodore of JG-54 ‘Grunherz’ (Green Heart), and I became commander of I/JG-76, which was re-designated II/JG-54. By the way, Trautloft had been my squadron commander in 1937 at Bad Aibling, so I knew him very well and held him in high esteem, and we are still close today.
Q- In October of 1940 you were awarded the Knight’s Cross; tell us about that.
A- That is quite correct. As a group commander I had to have at least fifteen aerial victories to qualify for this high decoration. I had already received the Iron Cross in both first and second classes. I received the award after my sixteenth victory, six in the battle of France and ten in the Battle of Britain, and I was very proud to be the first pilot of JG-54 to receive the decoration. I had to drive to Herman Goering’s command train, which was at that time stationed near Beauvais.
Q- So the Knight’s Cross was awarded to you by Goering?
A- Yes, that is correct, and with me at that time was a very good friend and excellent fighter pilot named Josef Priller, whom we called ‘Fips’ or ‘Pips’. Priller ended the war with 101 victories, all flying against the Western Allies. At this time he was a squadron leader in JG-26 ‘Schlageter’.
Q- What did you think of Goering when you met him, as opposed to later in the war?
A- In 1940 he was a large, very alert and interested person wanting details of the fighting and what we thought about the enemy aircraft and our own new models. But this changed as the war went on and he became lethargic, lazy, and disinterested in anything except himself. He became a joke to the fighter pilots, and some even said so to his face.
Q- What was your next combat arena?
A- I left the Channel coast on 30 November 1940, when JG-54 as a whole moved back to Northern Germany. We were in need of serious replenishment of pilots and serviceable aircraft, as our losses had been high. The pilots and ground crews went on leave, and this was when I got married, which I guess would qualify as my next combat arena, don’t you think? In the second half of January 1941 we were sent to Lemans and Cherbourg in Northwest France; however, this was only until the war was carried into Yugoslavia. After Yugoslavia was defeated we handed over our aircraft to the fighter units continuing the war against Greece and Crete. II/JG-54 transferred by car and train to the air base of Stolp-Reitz in Northeast Germany where we received our new Messerschmitt 109F’s.
Q- So you did fly during the Balkans campaign?
A- Only against Yugoslavia, where we did not encounter any enemy aircraft. We flew ground attack and strafing missions as well as reconnaissance, none of which was interesting for us fighter pilots. I do, however, remember hearing about a couple of pilots who encountered enemy flown Messerschmitts, which Germany had sold to them before the war, older models. They did not have self-sealing tanks or protective armour plating for the pilot so it was easy to kill them.
Q- Was that when the Croatian units received 109’s for their air force?
A- No, they were given the standard 109, equipped just like ours after Yugoslavia had been secured.
Q- Tell us about your transfer to JG-52; when did that occur?
A- Well, before I assumed command of JG-52 I fought with JG-54 for over a year on the Leningrad Front after the invasion of Russia, until 1 October 1942 when I was promoted to major and took over the command of JG-52, which by the way was fighting in the southern region.
Q- Was there, in your opinion, any great difference between the war in the north and in the south of Russia?
A- Oh yes, definitely! I would call the Leningrad Front rather quiet, static, since we were not required to continuously move from one base to another in order to fly our missions. In the south, however, in the Crimea and Caucasus for instance, it was a fast war. We flew at first from Kharkov to the Stalingrad area in the north, then to the Caucasus Mountains and Black Sea. We were used as a sort of fire brigade, as the front was always moving back and forth; we were expected to be at every spot that was burning, to put out the fire, so to speak.
Q- It is my understanding that JG-52 was used to fill in the gaps in the battle line, and supplement the exhausted forces.
A- That is correct, yes. During my two years as Kommodore of JG-52 I flew from forty-seven different airfields.
Q- Well, it seems you received a free, all expense paid tour of greater Russia.
A- Yes, but we did not get to take in the sights, unless it was from the cockpit, as most of our bases were far away from major cities, which were always being contested.
Q- The Luftwaffe Reiseburo (touring group), you might say?
A- Yes, but without proficient chaperones, male or female, to show us the interesting places and sights in their country.
Q- What in your opinion was the most significant difference in the war on the Channel Coast and the war in Russia?
A- I think that the first and foremost thing to consider was the psychological factor. In the Battle of Britain we knew that our enemy was similar to us, educated and civilised. The British were a fair people and acted according to the rules of war under the Geneva and Hague Conventions, especially concerning the treatment of prisoners of war, the International Red Cross, etc. However, with the Soviets we never knew if we would survive being downed behind their lines or not, and the history has proven that there was no such adherence to these regulations, or even simple humane treatment of another warrior.
Q- Johannes Steinhoff, Walter Krupinski and Gunther Rall agreed that fighting
the British was more sportive and enjoyable a contest.
A- I agree totally, although war will never be enjoyable.
Q- How would you rate the British fighter pilot against the Soviets, since you survived aerial combat against both?
A- Well, I must say that the really experienced Russians thoroughly trained in peace time were killed off in the first months of the invasion, and those that remained flew obsolete aircraft such as the SB-2, the so-called Martin Bomber, DB-3 bombers as well as old I-15 and I-16 fighters; the Ratas, and used no tactics whatsoever. Furthermore the Russians lacked the technical training and combat skill which the British had mastered, at least early in the war. The Russians had no stomach for prolonged dog fighting, unlike the British. However, later in the war a new breed of Russian pilots emerged, flying excellent native aircraft and were formed into elite Red Banner Fleets. The best Russia had was placed in these units and they claimed many German pilots. I would have to say the British were the most aggressive that I flew against.
Q- Tell us about November of 1943, when you met Adolf Hitler for the first time.
A- I was ordered to Hitler’s forward headquarters at Vinnitza in the Ukraine for the award of the Oak Leaves. When I landed my 109 I was informed that Hitler had already left and returned to the Wolf’s Lair. Well, I left my fighter there and continued my journey on a courier plane, and of all the people I met Hans-Ulrich Ruedel, who along with his tail gunner Henschel, had been ordered there for the same reason. Do you remember this name?
Q- Oh yes Sir, I know the name Ruedel very well.
A- He was the most highly decorated pilot Germany had during the war, winning the Knight’s Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds, and Golden Oak Leaves with Diamonds. I found it interesting that he brought along his Staff Sergeant, his tail gunner to meet Hitler. Ruedel had requested that Henschel be awarded the Knight’s Cross, but it had never arrived.
Q- I met Henschel’s brother several years ago.
A- Do you know if Henschel survived the war? He was a likeable boy.
Q- No, he drowned when Ruedel was forced down on the Dnieper in 1944. They tried to swim across, along with another crew from another crashed Ju-87 Stuka and tried to swim away from the Soviets. Rudi Falkenhahn knew Ruedel very well, and he said he really cared about his men, but that he was a bit of a maniac.
A- Yes, he was a true fanatic up to the last day. We used to fly cover missions for his dive bombers, and just watching him you could see it. After we all received our decorations, including Henschel, we had lunch with Hitler and several of his staff members. After this we had coffee with Hitler alone, and after some conversation we left to return to our units.
Q- What was your impression of Hitler during this meeting?
A- He was very serious, hardly laughing or showing any humour, but this was after we had lost Stalingrad and the Sixth Army and the North African Front. He asked us about our units, families, where we came from and what our opinions were of the war at the front. I was very reserved, but Ruedel discussed this issue as if it were a great crusade, amazing me. I was more amazed that Hitler seemed to enjoy the talk, as if defeat could be averted through this man. It was very interesting. I then took some weeks of leave, and when I returned to the front the Russians had already overrun Vinnitza. My transport aircraft, a Ju-52 flew low to avoid Russian fighters, but we were always in danger of ground fire and partisans. My destination was Tagenrog, where my unit had been reassigned in the meantime.
Q- Gunther Rall told me about Tagenrog, as did Walter Krupinski, Erich Hartmann and Johannes Steinhoff, and how the unit fared. Where did the war take you in 1944?
A- From Tagenrog we were forced to retreat west by pressure from the Soviets, who were rolling over our ground troops by sheer weight of numbers. From the Crimean Peninsula, which we had abandoned in the spring of 1944, we went via Odessa to several bases in Romania, Hungary, and Poland where I had my base headquarters at Krakau, leaving a group in Hungary. Our wing had just celebrated its 10,000th victory, which was the only unit to do so in the Luftwaffe or the world, as far as I know. This was when I handed over command to Oberstleutnant (Lieutenant Colonel) Herman Graf, and I transferred back to JG-54. This unit was at that time fighting in the Baltic region against the Russians and partisans, and the military situation had changed completely. Three years before we had reached Lake Ladoga at Leningrad, cutting the city and the four million inhabitants off from the rest of the Soviet Union. Now our troops of Army Group North had been driven back through Latvia and Estonia, cutting them off from the rest of the Reich. Just at the time I arrived the unit was being equipped with the Focke-Wulf Fw-190 D fighter, where we flew missions against the Russians who had reached the Baltic Sea, driving through and separating East Prussia from Latvia. The Luftwaffe was very weak at this point, as with two groups of JG-54 we could never hope to attain air superiority against the mounting numbers of Russian aircraft. The Russians never defeated Army Group North, which held out until the last day of the war, surrendering about 210, 000 Germans and Latvian volunteers to the Soviets in the Kurland.
Q- How did you manage to get your men out of the Kurland pocket?
A- Well, on 8 May 1945 I received a radio call ordering me to take off with the group the next morning, weather permitting. We were to fly to Flensburg on the Danish border, and since I maintained good relations with the German Navy, mostly because I still had friends from my early days, they agreed to take as many of the ground personnel as possible by ship. Concerning us pilots, we ripped out all unnecessary equipment from our fighters, allowing us to take two men, your best friend and the first mechanic, one man crouching behind the seat after removing the armour plate, and the other fitting into the fuselage. For us it became the last and longest flight of our lives, but at least ninety-percent of my personnel escaped Russian capture. We did not know the war had ended, but learned this fact after we landed and were taken prisoner by the British and placed in a POW camp.
Q- You were taken away, were you not?
A- Yes, because I held the rank of colonel I was sent to Belgium and placed in a special re-education camp until release could be secured, when in February of 1946 I was allowed to go home.
Q- Did you have many problems with partisans during the war?
A- In Russia we were always aware of the possibility of partisan attacks against our airfields. We had Luftwaffe ground soldiers assigned to our fields; never trusting the volunteers with the aircraft. I never really had problems with partisans attacking my airfields in particular, and the only problem I remember having was when we were in the Kurland. The Red Army was attacking and we had to leave rather quickly, but I cannot say if this involved partisans or not. I do know that we took every precaution against sabotage.
Q- How many victories did you have during the war?
A- I had 125 confirmed victories, all but about sixteen in Russia.
Q- Tell us about the work you performed for Chancellor Konrad Adenauer, general.
A- In 1953 I was asked to join a group of former officers who were trying to make preparations for a new German Luftwaffe. The new forces were being built up, as you know, because of the Cold War. This group was called ‘Amt Blank’, which finally became the Deutchesministerium der Verteitigung (German Ministry of Defence). I joined this group hoping to be able to fly again, and together with Steinhoff and Kurt Kuhlmey (from the Polar Front in Norway-Finland) we went for refresher training in the United States.
Q- Where did you train in America?
A- It was at this time that the USAF formed the MDAP (Mutual Defence Assistance Programme) in Germany. Here they built up several bases just like in the States in order to re-train former Luftwaffe personnel from various branches. Kuhlmey, Steinhoff and I started refresher training on a proficiency basis in Winterhaven, Florida, near St. Petersburg. Together with young American cadets we underwent all of the basic tests, especially the physical examinations and check rides. Included was a language school to improve our rather poor English, except Steinhoff, who spoke several languages very well. After we finished the basic training on the AT-6 [Texan] we were posted for advanced training on the T-33 at Williams Field Air Force Base near Phoenix, Arizona. From January 1956 onward we received our weapons training at both Williams Field and Luke Air Force Base on the F-84 and the F-86 Sabre.
Q- How did you like America?
A- We loved it, especially Arizona where we had a fine time there. It was very interesting as well as strenuous for us, as we were already rather old men compared to the other pilots, you know.
Q- It was a matter of selecting the best and most experienced combat pilots in the world to enhance the training and atmosphere I am sure, as well as updating you future NATO commanders on modern weapons and tactics.
A- That makes sense, as we worked very closely with all NATO forces, cross training and working together.
Q- When did you finally retire, General?
A- I finally retired in 1970.
Q- Which positions did you hold in the post-war Bundesluftwaffe?
A- Well, there were quite a number of positions that I held. Upon returning from America in 1956 I became commander of the Advanced Pilot Training Centre at Furstenfeldbrueck, which I took over from the USAFE [United States Air Forces Europe] with about 120 officers and airmen. These missions ended in December 1959. In 1960 I became Brigade Commander of all flying training centres for our Luftwaffe, and two years later I was appointed Commander of the Air Defence Sector Number One, covering North Germany and the Netherlands. After two more years passed I was posted at the Air Centre at Fontainbleu near Paris as Chief of Air Defence Central Europe, a NATO assignment. My next position brought me back to our Defence Ministry, when I became Special Manager for the F-104 Starfighter to handle problems we were experiencing with this wonderful aircraft. I think you are aware of the many pilot losses we had in the mid-1960s with this fighter. From 1967 onward I held the position of general of the Air Force Fighting Units, the predecessor of the Luftwaffenkommando of today. All of the flying units as well as the anti-aircraft units using Hawk, Nike, Pershing, Roland and other air defence systems were under this command, which compares to your Tactical Air Command of today.
Q- How is life for you today since you retired? I know that you come to the United States on occasion. Do you enjoy your later years?
A- After I retired I stayed in contact with old comrades still on active duty, and I remained in the shadows as an advisor to an aircraft engine manufacturer until about 1973. I bought a French Jodel, a small aircraft and continued to enjoy flying, and became president of a sport flying club until I had to stop due to a serious illness in 1984, when I spent two years in the hospital. I still have many friends in America, such as yourself, and I enjoy the times when I can come. I was proud to have been elected an honorary member of the Inter-national Order of Characters and the Fursty Tree Movers Association, a gathering of USAFE personnel who had assisted me at Furstenfeldbrueck. I visited many aircraft companies in the States and I had connections with the Wernher von Braun team at Huntsville, Alabama. When you ask if I am happy to be retired, I must say yes! I spent over thirty years in uniform, although I still watch with interest all of the political and military developments going on all over the world.
Q- Do you think that another great war like the two world wars is possible in the future?
A- I am of the opinion that there will never be another world war, possibly due to the arsenals of controlled nuclear weapons and the technology available today. But war-like situations exist in many places around the world today, as in the former Yugoslavia. Religion and economics are probably the greatest motivations for war. I do not think that the armed forces of the west are equipped to handle war on a global scale as in the past, since budgets are low and costs are high. I personally think that the forces in my country should be cut in half, and organised like the United States Marines, with one third for home defence, and the rest being recruited professionals. You were a paratrooper and Marine, so you know that your country has many world-wide obligations where peace is concerned. America needs powerful forces, yet they should learn from Vietnam, Korea, Somalia, and now Yugoslavia. I hope that large wars will never happen again, where young men must give their lives for a useless cause.